If you don't know what I'm talking about, you've been living under a rock. Of particular interest to me,what Justice Kennedy said when questioning the attorneys today. Would your argument be the same if all minorities passed the test and no white people?? Kind of puts it in perspective for me.
Once we start catering to a specific group of people, we will be catering to every individual group from now on. It's like pandora's box. It is not racist to have standards and if you can't meet those standards maybe you don't deserve the promotion in the first place. Affirmative action needs to come to an end. At first, I could maybe condone it's use because their was a point in time when NO ONE would consider black people, or other minorities, for certain jobs. I don't think it's like that now. There is no "true" way to prove "discriminatory intent" and the best man doesn't always get the job because employers are so scared to death of being sued. This isn't what the legal system was meant for and it needs to stop. I hope the Supreme Court does the right thing. However, with the government now a days I have a feeling I will probably be disappointed in June when the decision comes out. We'll see!!
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ReplyDeleteIn the United States, about one million jobs are filled in an average month. If women and African Americans have access to the jobs currently being filled, then affirmative action programs are unnecessary and we should dismantle them. On the other hand, if their access to a significant portion of the jobs they could do well is severely limited and it's a reality. In spite of the progress toward FAIRNESS access that has been made since the 1960's, we are not even close to having achieved a labor market in which a candidate's sex and race don't matter. In many working places, a candidate's sex and race are still noticed when job assignments are made. There still needs to be guidelines for equality in the corporate America. The purpose of affirmative action is to reduce segregation by race and sex in the workplace. Obviously, much of the segregation that affirmative action was designed to eliminate is still present. The argument that affirmative action programs have already accomplished so much that we no longer need any programs of this or any other type in the workplace cannot seriously be made by anyone who has examined the evidence of what is and always been a factor in the workplace.
ReplyDeleteThose who want to abolish affirmative action pretend that the result would be a system in which sex and race are not noticed when job assignments are made. The data on segregation by sex and race show that in may workplaces affirmative action has not been implemented or at least not vigorously enough to have enabled more than a few blacks to have white coworkers or more than a few women to have male coworkers. Affirmative action being abolished would only put an end to the effort to reduce segregation.
Better education should be part of our programs for reducing racial and sexual disparities, and so should on-the-job training programs with slots reserved minorities and women. Nevertheless however well they augment programs to reduce discrimination, training and education programs cannot replace them.
The justice system has far more programs that are a waste, this program is a double edged sword just like all things that are meant to be governed. The justice system is not perfect and that why the constitution is continuously being probed to be amended and revised to protect liberties for all people. In some cases, things are silly but if that a right that we all have - to have all things addressed and to have that freedom to be heard. If a cat can get a trust fund, a human being has the right to have a possible discrimination case reviewed.
If your saying an employer violates practices because of discriminatory intent than you're implying that it is possible to determine the employers subjective intent for making a decision. This is very difficult to do and leaves room for abuse. Unfortunately many people have faked discrimination for "windfall settlements" and therefore have ruined it for any legitimate discrimination suits. Many other things come into play. I think it is obvious that affirmative action isn't working. It polarizes potential employers. Right now if you are a minority, and especially a woman, employers want you!! Can't argue with that. I have tons and tons of friends that work in HR that would tell you that. If that isn't affirmative action working I don't know what is.
ReplyDeleteEducation isn't needed people know it's unfair to judge someone based on the color of their skin or sex. Frankly they are tired of hearing it. However you can't legislate morality or choice and that is what affirmative action is attempting to do. Justice Marshall is even against affirmative action, and he's black!!
All affirmative action does is pit people against each other and have them focus on their races. So no one ever focuses on the real things: job experience, training, education, etc. that should come into play when you have a job.
As a woman, and as a lawyer I am surrounded by men in my field. I don't want a law to tell lawyers to hire more men, that would be ridiculous. It would have other people harbor resentment towards me and other woman, discount my skills and capabilities, etc.
What if people of certain races just don't gravitate towards certain jobs naturally?? They have no interest. Those that do get the training and skills necessary for the job because they have an interest in it. Those that don't, don't. It's not always discriminatory, it sometimes ends up that way.
I do agree that the justice system does have a lot of programs that are a waste though. :)
You didn't answer my question, what if the black firefighter did well on the test and none of the white firefighter did well at all and so they promoted no one. Would that be discrimination?? Would that test have racist implications?? Or do I smell a double standard.
Above it is supposed to say I don't want a law to tell lawyers to hire more women. My bad.
ReplyDeletePlus I meant to write Justice Thomas not Marshall!! Ugghh, I need to go to bed I'm exhausted.
ReplyDeletewhether it's race or economic status, there will always be those that expect something for nothing. The problem is that it costs those of us that actually work hard and make a legitimate living. I don't care personally what your skin color is or how much is in your bank account, just get to work. This country is filled with self made men and women of all colors that have been extremely successful despite the system. The difference with those that have made it and those that have not is the desire to do what needs to be done rather than the desire to wonder what government can do for them.
ReplyDeleteYou've made very good points but not everyone thinks as logically as you do. It's sad but until everyone thinks that it's a matter of qualifications things will remain to be bias to a certain degree. Not just with African Americans but with all minorities especially Hispanic Americans. Whomever is qualified should be promoted, if no one is promoted and there is a qualified employee who happens to be a minority, under what guidelines does that decision maker have not to hire that qualified applicant? IF there is no reason then there is a second thought that there is a racial implication. Please explain why there is more minority laborers than decision makers? There all can't be not qualified. It's border line stereotypes and perception of a specific race or gender that even makes a employer disregard that qualified applicant. It doesn't matter if Justice Thomas is black, that is another misconception - African Americans don't have a unified thought process. Everyone is a individual first and should be treated as such. That was his opinion and doesn't speak for individual African American who may agree or disagree. His personal experiences and his own ideologies gives him that opinion his race is not a added point to the argument against affirmative action. As in any subculture or race, people in this country are divided into class systems. He may not be able to relate to every African American's experience as a citizen in the U.S. because that would be impossible.
ReplyDeleteAs far as handouts go that's another misconception, even thought this discussion is about Affirmative Action, there are more Caucasians on block grants versus African Americans, like social service programs and etc. I think that handouts are equated with African Americans and that is another misconception that is interweaved in the time lines of this country. Obviously race matter's in this society in a tremendous way. When I stop seeing polls based on race from jobs, tv shows and elected official then I will say race isn't a big issue in this country. It's true some wonder what the government can do for them but that's spread in between all the races. Sit for one day at any social service office or governmental program office you will see a rainbow of races not one constant stream of one specific race.
I'm tired also, some spelling errors may have occurred........good nite to all! I will wake up refreshed and grammatically correct.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone is racist because of our society and I don't think it will ever end. The good news is most of us realize that it is wrong and try to rise above it.
ReplyDeleteEd has the right of it. The issue with Affirmative Action is this: Those who need Affirmative Action to hire properly barely follow the law as it stands. That is to say they only hire enough minorities (of any sort) to fulfill their obligations, these companies want Affirmative Action abolished, for obvious reasons. Those companies who don’t need Affirmative Action, those who hire based on education and experience and not race/creed/sex or color, and some of these companies also want Affirmative Action abolished because they cannot believe that it does anything.
ReplyDeleteIt’s really hard for someone who is not racist and who hasn’t experienced any racism to believe that it exists. I believe this is where Alicia falls in this topic. I would like to believe that the people of this country are not stupid enough to believe someone is inferior based purely on physical attributes, however the sad truth is they are. I don’t like the concept of “race,” I don’t even consider myself “Black,” nor am I African-American. I’m just an American. There’s no reason to further describe me, I’m just another American. Some people can’t grasp that fact. I do agree with Alicia that a lot of idiots out there ruin it for the people who experience legitimate racism issues, I know people who are always rambling on about “The Man” holding them down and such. Yes, The Man is holding you down, not the fact that you’re on the corner selling drugs…
Anyway Alicia, yes if the Black Fire Fighter did well and none of the White Officers did and no one was promoted that is racism. I’m not sure about this case we’re discussing, but if those Black Fire Fighters failed the test, then they failed the test. They should not be promoted. What I said earlier about how a test can be culturally biased doesn’t apply in this case because I can’t think of how a fire fighter test can be culturally biased. I mean, fire doesn’t discriminate.
And lastly to Korey: I don’t agree with what you said at all. Everyone is not racist. I really don’t know you so I don’t mean to offend, however normally people who express that opinion are attempting to rationalize their own illogical beliefs. I am not racist at all. I could give a damn about the color of a person’s skin, I judge them based on their words and actions.
No offense taken. I also think it's impossible to agree with everyone on every subject. I strive to be non-racist also but IMO to be completely non-racist is part of that perfection humans can never reach. Just like I think any organization can never be completely nonpartisan.
ReplyDeleteThanks Teddy,I agree with everything you've said in your post. However, it's Eb though short for Ebonie.
ReplyDeleteI like all your posts. I do think it is hard for me to understand a black persons point of view, or minority for that matter, while it is hard for you to understand my point of view being white.
ReplyDeleteThat being said since it is hard to put out exactly what goes through a persons head when they hire someone, even when they have the best of intentions, delineating affirmative action rules successfully will never occur. I think we always look to our government to do everything for us when it should be the other way around. Work hard to establish your own change. You control your future, etc., etc. I would be for more money for training individuals (votech, etc.), college grants, community training centers, etc.
Earlier I wasn't referring to black people just taking handouts, just people in general. Especially with our generation and those to come. We don't want to work hard. We think everything should be given to us as an entitlement or right, and when someone screws with that we're pissed. People that complain about the man, whatever race they may be, a lot of them like to wallow in self pitty and not do anything about it. That can get frustrating for those who do try to do something about it. You know?? You don't just graduate from college or high school and become a CEO of a company, or the fashion buyer at a major department store. You have to take that shitty job, wait tables, intern, etc, etc., to make your dreams happen. Just like 40% of the taxes in the US are paid by 3% of its citizens, a lot of the points that you make above aren't because of race. They are status, wealth things and that IS NOT effected by affirmative action. :)
I don't know why there is more minority laborers than decision makers. Some say it's because they are willing to take jobs other people won't take. That I think is changing right now with the economy because people just want to work and are "lowering there standards" so to speak. I do think that more people of different races, sexes and creeds should be decision makers. However, I don't think it should be through affirmative action.
That said, I know 2 of you are black, (not sure who (Korey is) but glad he contributed and I appreciate the candid discussion. Please keep contributing and if you have any suggestions for posts let me,tulsa, nick , or clinton know.
Eb: Sorry about that, won't happen again :).
ReplyDeleteKorey: I do agree the odds of an orginzation being unbiased is slim to none, but that's because the more people you gather for anything, the more likely you'll get a racist person. Or a stupid person. You can't keep stupidity out of any group, it's just not possible.
And Alicia: American, not Black, for me at least. Not sure how the others term themselves.
This is fun btw, gives me something to do when it's slow at work!